To put it in perspective: the USA has it (but dormant as it was last used in the 60s) now, instead part of an automatic register. I’ve heard that last year Germany for example proposed to impose a mandatory, volunteer-focused military service model on boosting defense against threats like Russia but would you really enlist in the German Army (Bundeswehr) or refuse instead of adhereing to politicians interests?
I’ve heard a similar thing in France with them introducing a new voluntary 10-month military service program for 18-19 year olds starting this summer 2026, but would guys there be willing to enlist or outright refuse? What ever the case is, would guys in Europe either accept voluntary military service imposed by their nation or refuse to enlist as they know that politicians are the ones who instigate wars in the first place?
For EU nations that still have the draft enforced (mandatory conscription): what happens if guys refuse it? Do they end up in jail? In that case, would you rather be imprisoned for refusing or comply? I know that some countries have alternative service (civic) rather than conventional military service, but what happens if the individual refuses either? I mean, is it a criminal offense for simply refusing conscription?
I’m quite glad to see that most of the answers are positive here. It used to be the other way around, of course this thread is not representative of the whole Europe, but anyways…
I’m a Finn, so I went. My plan was to do the minimum and get the hell out of there. But after 6 weeks I liked the guys in my group, I actually enjoyed having to actually do something different for a change, not just sit at the computer or go to band practice/gigs. So when the 8 week starting period ended and it became time to choose what you want to “specialize” in, I checked the boxes for NCO and officer training. Didn’t get to go for the officer training but got to go to be a NCO. I was in the artillery. My job was to figure out where we were and which direction we were pointing. So I learned a lot of stuff about maps, that was fun because I love maps. I also learned how to take the position and direction from the moon and stars, that was fun because I love stars and space shit. I learned a bunch of other skills as well. If I were a dictator, I’d force everyone to go, at least for 5-6 months. You learn skills that you might not need, sure, but you also learn stuff that you didn’t know you needed.
Over the years I’ve heard people say “I wouldn’t go because my country is not worth fighting for.” I would understand that if you are from russia or some such place. But so many Germans have said it to me and I’m just baffled by that. Like okay, I get it, the government is shit. But in a war, you are not defending just the government, you are defending your family, friends, your house, the park you walk through, the way you live, the way your neighbor lives. Are those not worth defending? I’m fine if you are a pacifist and wont take up arms, thats fine. But if you say your country is not worth defending and you live in Europe, thats just ridiculous.
I’m a misanthrope and I hate most people, but if someone tries to come to my yard and start some shit, I’m gonna go fight, out of spite, if not for anything else. I want to hate people in my own terms, I want to tell people to fuck off in Finnish in Finland. Not in russia.
the government is shit
I hear that kind of response from Americans regarding the draft (well… Trump is in office, a president who is a convicted felon by the way) so hence why they would rather be in prison instead of either dying on foreign soil or be scarred with PTSD whilst being neglected by the “system” that’s meant to help.I wouldn’t go because my country is not worth fighting for.
It’s the same for the US, knowing them: like with the Iraq war (Bush uses the pretense of WMD’s in which there are none found) both soldiers and marines died for a conflict Bush initiated. In their case, most of the wars (outside their own borders) are instigated by their own government.Seems like I didn’t finish my thought there, I was in the middle of only my second cup of morning coffee, sorry for being a bit unclear!
But yes, I would include the US in “russia or some such place.” I would argue that the US has not fought a defensive war since 1945. So I would exclude them from the “defending your country” thing. If you join the US armed forces, you are not going to defend your country, if anything, you are making the world more dangerous for your fellow countrymenwomen.
So if you are a American, I probably agree with any and all reasons to not join the military. But thats also why I included the bit about “if you are European” in my original post.
I’m not sure about Finland or the EU, but often or not the US one involves the MIC (sotateollinen kompleksi) in which is the relationship between defense companies and the government, in a business sense - they profit from war via the arms trade as weapons are used in wars made by those companies.
Yes, another good reason for not dying for the benefit of the US corporate world.
Does Finland have a MIC or not really? (And yes, the US shouldn’t be considered a country, more like a corporation).
Well, I have a lot of thoughts about your text. I’ve been a conscript in the German military around 2007. It was a fascist infested environment back then, it is worse today. A lot of officers openly revered the Wehrmacht, one officer candidate called another conscript “you jewish pig” and so on and so forth. So, there’s that. But the most thoughts I had about “fighting for something”, so let’s go through it:
you are defending your family, friends
OK, so I fight at the front while maybe they are bombed at home. I’d rather use my skills to take the Balkan route the other way around with them to safety
your house
I don’t have a house, probably never will own one, cannot afford. I would be defending the house of my landlord who owns 6 houses. I don’t see the need.
the park you walk through
It is a nice park, but the playgrounds for my children are broken, as “we don’t have the money to fix them”. Yeah, right, maybe ask my landlord about where that money is. The austerity kills everything beautiful in the cities, but apparently “there’s no alternative”. So in five years time the park is not worth defending anymore.
the way you live
You mean slaving in a soulless office for scraps, that will never buy me a home (see above), while politicians tell me “you need to work more for your country, oh, btw, we cannot afford social security and healthcare anymore ¯\_(ツ)_/¯” All the while my kids go crazy with all the pressure and constant crisis around them.
the way your neighbor lives
Not gonna defend that asshole. He wants to ban gay marriage, deport brown people and thinks renewable energy will, idk, kill him or something.
I mean, yeah, it’s oc very cynical, but that is the gist of it.
OK, so I fight at the front while maybe they are bombed at home. I’d rather use my skills to take the Balkan route the other way around with them to safety
When the Ukraine war started, I made a plans. If russia would have attacked us, I made a plan for my (now ex) German girlfriend to join my parents and for them to go to my sisters house in the north west of the country and from there over to Sweden, from there possibly back to Germany or just stay in Sweden. I would have gone to the front lines while they do that.
I don’t have a house, probably never will own one, cannot afford. I would be defending the house of my landlord who owns 6 houses. I don’t see the need.
So instead of paying rent, you’d rather have your house bombed to the ground? Seems a bit weird but okay…
It is a nice park, but the playgrounds for my children are broken, as “we don’t have the money to fix them”. Yeah, right, maybe ask my landlord about where that money is. The austerity kills everything beautiful in the cities, but apparently “there’s no alternative”. So in five years time the park is not worth defending anymore.
So the better option is to let a russian tank roll over the remains of the park and maybe set up a air defense system there?
You mean slaving in a soulless office for scraps, that will never buy me a home (see above), while politicians tell me “you need to work more for your country, oh, btw, we cannot afford social security and healthcare anymore ¯_(ツ)_/¯” All the while my kids go crazy with all the pressure and constant crisis around them.
“Things are bad now so I’m fine with them getting horribly bad. I work in a horrible job so I’m okay if bombs start raining on peoples houses.”
Not gonna defend that asshole. He wants to ban gay marriage, deport brown people and thinks renewable energy will, idk, kill him or something.
“My neighbor is a bigoted arsehole, so I’m fine with the whole neighborhood being razed to the ground”
Might be cynical but that’s how I hear what you are saying.
“I am not willing to fight and die for the stuff I don’t find that good and rather flee”
is very different from
“I find it better if everything and everybody burns”
like you interpreted what I wrote.
I think I would, unfortunately. There’s no choice. I’m Romanian and I know plenty of history to know what happened to our military in the last two WWs, but if there’s a demand, then I would go for it.
Peoplle in my country all say that “oh, I wouldn’t join, which corrupt politician do you see me to defend? I’d rather move out of my country” etc. (You usually hear this from the most right wing people out there).
The reality is that you’re not fighting for the asses of the corrupts only. You’re also fighting for the relative freedom that you have, the safety of your land, so that your dear ones don’t have to be forced to learn another language or subject to a culture they don’t want etc.
And no, if there will be any mission involving America, I don’t think there will be a draft. They’re usually just sending a bunch of people in the conflict, mostly sitting on the side and that’s it. It’s mostly Russia that I’m afraid of.
I’m in the USA and am medically unfit for service.
Hunter Thompson was a famous american iconoclast and no friend to the oligarchy. He served in the Air Force and said that the draft was a good thing, because it forced all kinds of people to interact and work together.
Another Vietnam era draftee once wrote that a professional army is full of lifers who will obey any order, no matter how illegal. A drafted civilian who doesn’t care about their military career will stand up for what’s right.
Yes, refusing draft is punishable by jail. I knew people that were hiding from MP for years. It’s not like they had to hide in some basement but they definitely couldn’t just live under their registered address. The risk of getting arrested was always there. There was some statue of limitations on it so you only had to hide until you’re 28 or something like that.
As for your question, for me it depends on the war. If someone would try to draft to invade other country I would refuse. If other country invaded Spain I would defend it (well, not Catalonia or Pais Vasco obviously but other communities for sure).
depends on the war
When referencing from the American perspective: A LOT or often - it involves the MIC (complejo militar-industrial) which in their case is the collab between defense companies (i.e. Lockheed Martin) & the government on making the big bucks (basically making money by arms trading). I’m not sure about Spain though…Spain haven’t invaded other countries in some time and there’s pretty much 0 chance it will start drafting people for a war abroad. If it tried I would refuse.
I mean, does Spain really have a military industrial complex? Which is basically politico-military relations, like a “business” rapport between the government, armed forces and defense contractors? Are there even weapons manufactuers based & operated in Spain (like how the US has Raytheon)?
Every country has weapons manufacturers. It’s a strategic industry and every country tries hard to maintain it. You don’t want to end up in a situation where you import all your weapons because if shit hits the fan you can be completely cut off and defenseless. So typically government tries to prop up local industry by ordering weapons from them. If they are lucky they also sell something to other countries. Spain for example manufactures some airplanes for Airbus, like CASA and they assemble Eurofighters. They have their own submarine program and build their own navy. Indra is a really big company for example. But it’s all tiny in comparison with US and not a corrupt so it’s difficult to convince politicians to start a war just to sell more weapons.
import all your weapons because if shit hits the fan you can be completely cut off and defenseless Believe it or not, the US (despite being a “first world” country) still imports semi conductors from China which are used for advanced military hardware but access can be revoked at any time if they’re at war.
the USA has it (but dormant as it was last used in the 60s) now, instead part of an automatic register.
The US doesn’t — and has never had — mandatory peacetime service of the “one serves six months or a year or something like that to be trained in military stuff during peacetime”, but if one is male, one does need to register so that in the event of a war where people are called up, one does need to serve then.
It also means that the US has to train people from scratch in a war where it needs them, so has a relatively-long time until it can greatly ramp up its forces if it needed them.
Oh one more thing about Sweden.
We have a concept called Totalförsvar, Absolute Defense, which means that everyone living in Sweden between the ages of 16 and 70 may be required to serve regardless of gender.
Foreign citizen may even be included depending on the situation.
This also include service after say, a nuclear accident, you may required to help with the cleanup, refusal can be punished with up to four years of prison time.
I think it really depends on the foreign policy of the country you live in. I would argue most European countries are unlikely to start offensive wars but would rather be defending against Russia for example. European countries are especially weary of offensive wars after what the US and UK pulled in order to make them join the Iraq War.
In this light, yes, I do believe it is the right choice to bolster our armies in Europe. I wanted to join myself but it seems my shoulder is too fucked for that.
But it is also a risk, since it could always happen that right wing extremists, like the afd in Germany, could come into power and then you’re stuck working for a military at the behest of fascists.
I believe we have to take that risk in order to protect European democracy. We just need to also do everything in our power to not let the fascists win elections in Europe.
I mean military service is limited time. And in germany you can always refuse to do military service so if the AfD came to power you could just refuse.
Yes, true enough. I suppose any penalties would be well worth it in order not to be serving the likes of afd.
Accept. Any war Canada fights before I’m too old is going to be for a very good reason. (Not technically Europe, but we’re trying)
Switzerland: my dad had to go to prison for a limited time for refusing military service and had to do an alternative service as well.
I was able to opt-out military in a normal way (just filling a form) and do the alternative service without going to jail, as this was changed in the time between
But the alternative service are 1.5x times the days you have to serve
Hell fucking no. Consequences be damned.
Welcome to Greece, where once you turn adult(18-19), you have to go to army. If you don’t show up, police or stratonomia searches for you, and if you fully never show up, you are called insubordination, and you get fine around 6k and you go to military court. You get to serve 12 months on mainland, 9 in boarders. The only way to avoid it is if you have some kind of medical situation, pay for it or have someone to move the strings, and still they will accept you, but unarmed. Apart from it, the worst part, is the training, they teach you old stupid stuff, and the weapons are so bad that you can’t even hit target, no matter how good you are! I did 9 months, and the training was the worst thing I ever done on a WW2 machinery. The thing is that training will probably change, as army is doing changes lately(Bless Niko Dendias). Will see.
What’s the public opinion regarding Greek politicians? Is it worth fighting for the government? Speaking of that, I’ve heard that Americans who refused the draft back in the 60s crossed the Canadian border. I mean, can people in Greece just enter and hide in neighboring countries to avoid conscription?
Of course it’s not worth fighting for a government that can’t stop scandals going on and on IMO. I forgot to mention that we where used to get paid 8.50 euros per month, which a year after was raised, but still, what they expect us to do with 8.50??
You can leave the country, but after a while they call you deserter, and coming to Greece will be limited, I think max 3 months of stay.
Greek politicians have a bad reflection.8.50 euros
Is that after taxes? WTF? Might as well consider it a “slave” wage. For perspective: a private in the US army gets paid $28,886 (~24,957€) per annum or about $2,407.20 (~2,079.80€) per month.It’s reality. There were people who couldn’t afford to serve in another town, let alone the transport tickets.
People can refuse and do civil service here in germany. If I was drafted I would do my service because I believe my country and Europe in general is worth defending and there is a lot to be learned even if I don’t wish to die. There are also a lot more things to be learned on a personal level even if it hopefully never comes to a direct military confrontation. I would most certainly want the service to not only include men this time as I would find this to lowkey be against gender-equality, as I believe it has to be equal in both directions.
I don’t believe I would willingly die for any abstract country or concept, but I would certainly risk my life to defend it. I would much rather risk my life to protect the people I love and the European Union with all it stands for than just let Russia take over and destroy our collective future.
I honestly think if it came to a hard confrontation war would be pretty costly for both sides but there is no way Russia would get the better of us if we sticked together.
But I guess this doesn’t mean much because I actually thought about serving a year voluntarily (although the timing didn’t line up and I would have had to take 2 years break since they need 3/4 months to find a spot for me to serve)
I live in Japan and can’t be drafted as a non-citizen. Living here, I’m not sure what either of my citizenship countries could do to actually draft me. Also in my mid-40s, colorblind, and with several parts of me held together by screws and plates, so I’m not exactly at the top of any list.
with several parts of me held together by screws and plates, so I’m not exactly at the top of any list.
You are partially bullet-proof!
Not in the most important parts, heh
So you’re an alien cyborg?
More or less. Nothing electronic in me yet… that I know of.
Gladly too old for it.
If I were young now, I would try very hard to avoid it.
Senior year I told a recruiter my medical history and they never called again. I still have that medical history and I’m not 18 anymore. If they raise the age of the draft I’ll drag out that old chestnut. If things get so bad they still want me to serve I’d probably stop taking the medicine I have to take as a result of my past and let them deal with the mess. I won’t be my problem I’ll be their problem.
recruiters wont want to deal with someone that needs a waiver, its time consuming and you likely wont even get a approved medically. common ones are eczema, psorasis and ASTHMA that are almost guaranteed not to be waived. because all 3 are easily triggered by enviromental triggers.
