• FlordaMan@lemmy.world
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    4 days ago

    After ww2 germany was occupied for years. I don’t think Russia should be let off the hook for what they are doing in Ukraine.

    • Kissaki@feddit.org
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      4 days ago

      Germany became trustworthy and stable through democratic systems and the rule of law. OP pulling an equivalence to Russia of today is insane.

      • plyth@feddit.org
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        4 days ago

        I am not pulling an equivalence. I am not saying that current Russia should be treated like current Germany. I am just saying that there can be reconsiliation. Russia’s main demand is no Nato. If Europe can offer that because we split with America then we should check what Russia has to offer. Maybe Putin is willing to step down for it.

        • Kissaki@feddit.org
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          2 days ago

          Russia’s main demand is no Nato.

          This is bullshit. ‘No NATO’ is one of Russia’s many lies, a talking point, a pushed narrative, a lie they used at some point. At the same time, Putin has publicly stated intention of getting control of UDSSR land “back”.

          NATO was never an enemy of a collaborative or just Russia. It was only opposition to military action.

          Giving in to ‘no Nato’ is giving up on autonomy and on being able to defend, with all its consequences.

          Today’s USA under Trump is more of an ally to Russia than not. Trump is actively working for Putin and against Europe. It’s just that the political and systematic environment protects us from worse, for now.

          • plyth@feddit.org
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            2 days ago

            Putin has publicly stated intention of getting control of UDSSR land “back”.

            Do you have a source? I know there is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics with the author being close to Putin, and there is a quote in another comment in that direction. But it requires to win a war against Europe. That’s not realistic.

            NATO was never an enemy of a collaborative or just Russia.

            Russia wanted to be part of Nato. Putin’s speech in front of the German parliament in 2001 looks sincere to me. On the other hand chancellor Kohl’s notes show that the West never had the intention to integrate Russia but they promised it.

            Giving in to ‘no Nato’ is giving up on autonomy and on being able to defend, with all its consequences.

            There is article 42 of the EU. There is also nothing preventing Nato from officially fighting for Ukraine right now.

            Today’s USA under Trump is more of an ally to Russia than not. Trump is actively working for Putin and against Europe.

            Deception. Trump would be impeached if that would be true. The US still have their base in Wiesbaden, they just let the EU pay for everything.

            Putin would need a strong but independent EU against the US while the US needs a fractured EU to keep them paying and following their lead. Both support the right wing parties but with different goals.

        • SupraMario@lemmy.world
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          4 days ago

          Lol no…just no. NATO and Ukraine being magically run by nazis is just an excuse. Putin wants power and to rebuild the USSR.

          https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna7632057

          “First and foremost it is worth acknowledging that the demise of the Soviet Union was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century,” Putin said. “As for the Russian people, it became a genuine tragedy. Tens of millions of our fellow citizens and countrymen found themselves beyond the fringes of Russian territory.

          That was in 2005. The writing was on the wall, and no one believed it.

        • poVoq@slrpnk.netM
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          4 days ago

          “No Nato”, but did you ask why “no Nato”? That has much less to do with the US, and much more to do with them trying to recover their previous imperial holdings in eastern Europe.

          Of course you can argue these eastern European countries are now imperial holdings of western Europe in some ways, but they themselves overwhemingly prefer that than to be subject to Russian rule again.

          Reconciliation with Russia is only possible when Russia stops being an aspiring empire, which is unlikely to happen any time soon.

          • plyth@feddit.org
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            3 days ago

            How can Russia believe to win the necessary wars? People suggest that Russia can win the propaganda war in the EU to take enough countries out of the EU and then have no opposition when conquering the Baltics. But buying ads cannot beat owning the algorithm.

            The strategic benefit of the Baltics for Russia is that defending is easier. It doesn’t make sense to start a war to get them.

            Russia doesn’t oppose the EU with article 42. I think it’s actually Nato and the influence of the US that they don’t want.

            • poVoq@slrpnk.netM
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              3 days ago

              If there is no western European support (because for example Germany is ruled by the AfD, France by the FN and the UK by Reform… not exactly an unrealistic scenario right now, and the “algorithm” is helping them with that) then they can win, or at the very least pressure these smaller states to become vassals like Belarus is right now.

              But even if you personally disagree that this is a realistic scenario, it doesn’t change the fact that the large majority of the eastern European states believe so and thus will prevent any attempts at reconciliation with Russia on EU level.

              • plyth@feddit.org
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                3 days ago

                But even if you personally disagree

                The US control the social networks. That’s not my personal preference but a fact.

                the large majority of the eastern European states believe so and thus will prevent any attempts at reconciliation with Russia on EU level.

                If they believe that soon the EU won’t protect them they would seek reconciliation immediately. They can only be aggressive towards Russia because they expect Russia to lose and to be dismantled.

                • poVoq@slrpnk.netM
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                  3 days ago

                  And the US is currently (intentionally or not) helping Russia in this information warfare against western European liberal governments.

                  And you are mixing up who is aggressive against whom. The eastern European states pose very little threat for Russia but feel (justified or not) massively threatened by them.

                  • plyth@feddit.org
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                    3 days ago

                    I mean news like

                    In Lithuania, the parliament has extended a special law on national sanctions for Russian and Belarusian citizens for another two …

                    With their history I understand why they want Russia’s power to be dismantled but it only makes sense to openly call for it if they don’t expect to fight Russia on their own in 5 years. Otherwise it would be better to try to avoid the war by trying to create peaceful relations before the protection runs out.

                    All I want to say with this is that Russia has not that much of an influence on the media.

                    The West uses the extreme right parties to split the workers so that neoliberal policies can be implemented.

                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madman_theory

                    We live in times of information warfare. That means that everything can be deception. As long as the billionaires don’t push for an impeachment I am sure that Trump is deception and with him everything that looks like successful Russian influence.

                    In South America we can see the US influence. Why should it be any different in Europe? At least in Germany we have a chancellor who was paid by an American company for years.

                    Russia can’t want a Europe that is controlled by the US. To me, the Russian support for the opposition looks not so much like an attempt to destroy Europe but as an attempt to get the US out.