Initial reaction: there’s no way that’s real
After reading the comments: what the fuck
I am shocked too wtf. I feel bad for men who went through that BS.
Very strange you haven’t absorbed this concept yet. “Bi women are straight but bi men are gay” is one of the most common tropes in the larger culture’s conception of sexual identity.
I don’t mean to brag, but I have an astonishing lack of culture.
bisexual women are hot
bisexual men are gross.
that’s the underlying assumption.
homosexuality is considered positive/attractive among women, and normalized. a woman doesn’t become less woman for being with a woman.
however, works the opposite for a guy. homosexuality makes a man less manly, or something.
Imagine being a dude and caring if people thought you were manly or not.
imagine being a dude and other people incessantly police your sexuality/masculinity and make comments on it almost everyday of your life.
I’ve seen so many cases of staunch progressive groups weaponize a guys sexuality as soon as they have a falling out with him. Its like these people never believed what they were saying. People are so spineless and have no morals.
My favourite is the ones who scream about slut shaming then use “virgin” as an insult.
Although that seems to have fallen out of fashion lately.
That specific insult I mean, not hypocrisy.
People always say stuff to me like, “You definitely live with your parents”. That one is super common. Like, who cares? It’s weird for me personally because I moved out over 20 years ago, but nothing wrong if I did live with my folks. It’s a world as hard as stone out there.
Living with your parents while working = being rich speedrun
Also, “you live in a basement”. I mean, it’s technically true. I spend a lot of time in my office that happens to be in a basement of a house I own.
Well, the bank owns most of it, but the point stands.
It’s weird for me personally because I moved out over 20 years ago,
Lol exactly. I get that comment every now and then and all I can do is laugh at their lame attempt.
It’s not out of fashion at all, “virgin” just became “incel”. The intent is identical.
Not really. Incel implies a level of indoctrination into a misogynistic POV that has you convinced that you’re better off alone. It’s not the same as insulting someone for simply not having had sex yet.
edit: not that I think either is a productive thing to call another person
Incel implies a level of indoctrination into a misogynistic POV
No one is thinking this deeply when they call a man who just said/did something they don’t like an “incel”. People just use it mindlessly as an insult, same as with “virgin”.
I think people who haven’t been been the target of insults since high school (or maybe ever?) forget how petty and uncreative it often is.
The point insulting someone isn’t to be truthful, it’s to be hurtful or put them down.
Maybe if they’re really young and weren’t on the internet when the word became popular, sure
who else call people virgin anyways?
Good point, but I still think incel carries a certain connotation of misogyny with it, though. Otherwise you would just say “virgin”
Not at all. Incels are almost overwhelmingly misogynistic and into a lot of weird pseudo scientific shit. Incels are those claiming they deserve women but at the same time don’t deserve them because they’re too beta and all the rich alphas are getting 10 chicks a second, so they excuse their lack of success with dating in a lot of made up bullshit to delude themselves into never improving as people.
Incels are not just virgins, they’re basically a cult, and thinking people use it just as ‘virgin’ is either deliberately obtuse or ignorant
I agree with everything you said, but also, there are absolutely people who just call weird guys incels regardless of whether or not it actually fits.
thinking people use it just as ‘virgin’ is either deliberately obtuse or ignorant
That’s just what people say these days, even if it’s inaccurate. They don’t care, they just want to insult and trigger. Who is the ignorant?
I mean, fair enough, but also, we really shouldn’t be making it even entertaining new definitions for words based on online ragebait.
Sadly, this is a human trait overall. It’s deep in the lizard brain section from early in our evolution.
If someone is part of a group and then does something seen as against the interest of the group (or groupthink, really) then any tiny little thing can become a trait leveraged against them. Either the person on the outs basically accepts demotion on the social ladder and hopes for re-acceptance from the group as subservient to everyone, or they’re just out for good. It’s one of our worst traits from a rational perspective, it’s violent and irrational monkey-brain shit, and likely made for small homogeneous, tight-knit groups that could count on each other to survive harsh environmental conditions.
With leftists and progressives the louder they are about their beliefs and virtues the less they actually follow those through. Just like with religious people, it’s just virtue signaling.
In my older age I’ve come to the realization that a lot of people join movements just to belong, not because they actually hold the conviction. I think in fact there are people who aren’t capable of even having a conviction, just bouncing between whatever expressive habits are most convenient socially
You see it with things like politics and religion too
Its hard to be morally consistent. But not impossible.
Absolutely. There are also people who are just contrarians and will define their current views as the opposite of what’s currently accepted.
It’s definitely a thing but i doubt it’s progressive women who are perpetuating it.
Love seeing progressive people dismiss the experiences of men
Keep up the bigoted work soldier
Huh? I didn’t dismiss either OP’s or the other commenters’s experience.
But I’m not going to jump to conclusions blindly at your say-so or he-said-she-said or your insults, because when you look at statistics: consistently, across a decade, across all age groups, women are far more supportive of LGBT folks, even the T in the UK (TERF Island).
I know this is a popular go-to thought terminating cliche for “bothsidesbad” type people, but beyond empathizing, what do you expect me to do exactly?
I am sorry to hear you had shitty experiences with progressive women. I had only good experiences with women period, even those on the older side, and I’m a trans woman in the UK. It’s your word against mine unless we have studies and data and statistics, and unless you can demonstrate me some to support an actual argument, this conversation is pointless.
If you have no such data, then at least pose a hypothetical, proposes a mechanical explanation, suggest methodological flaws in existing data, but don’t expect the world to adjust to your experiences or opinions.
You have no self reflection abilities
Aight, so you are just trolling by saying random words with no meaning or relevance. Shouldn’t you be called smoothestsapphic instead because you’re a fucking smooth brain?
Reflect on that and grow the fuck up and speak like an adult.
You trolling and then dismissing me when I tell you to self reflect is funnier than you’ll realize.
if they do that, they aren’t really “progressive”.
They didn’t claim that. They said even progressive women will leave you, meaning they have that issue with all the usual suspects, but also progressive women.
doesn’t count as a true Scotsman fallacy if I assume they aren’t really progressive.
but you can’t be progressive if you have an issue with queer people or anyone bending gender boundaries.
Okay, but are you banned from progressivism if you’re not into them sexually?
That’s a hell of an onus. Like, you literally need to work yourself up to being horny for “anyone bending gender boundaries” or you’re out?
No, but you’re a hypocrite.
Why would you be? You can be absolutely aware of the social patterns imposed on you, including those that are discriminatory or unfair, and still be subject to their effects.
Humans build a lot of their psyche by socializing. From aesthetic preference to sexual arousal or choices of flavor and texture for food. You’re not a hypocrite for not liking spicy food growing up in a culture with milder tastes and you’re not a hypocrite for finding traditional gendered aesthetics attractive after growing up in a culture that reinforced them at you at every turn.
You’re a hypocrite if you find those distasteful or exploitative and still perpetuate them forward to your kids, but even if you don’t, you’re not the only influence they have.
See, that’s why this is a bit of a bummer. This fiction on leftist circles that you can change a deeply ingrained societal pattern overnight or you’re a failure or a hypocrite is not just unrealistic, it’s kind of ignorant and mean spirited. You should be concerned with not making things worse and moving them in the right direction, but you shouldn’t always take the maximalist approach and assume you’re responsible for enforcing overnight radical change.
That’s how right wingers keep setting up their dumb absurdity checks. They just dare progressives to go maximal on every stupid detail and then point at it and call it a lack of common sense. You can recognize a consequence of inequality without enforcing a complete solution instantly. Change takes time, even on an individual level.
No obviously not. I wouldn’t date black or Asian folks for instance, or fat people, or dumb people or overly outdoorsy folks or a right-winger or a religious person or anyone under 5’10". I’ll happily stand to defend all those folks rights and I’ll stand by them hand in hand in solidarity, we just won’t fuck.
This is ok. This is normal. When it comes to personal association, especially sexual, freedom of association - is a core tenet of any libertarian socially progressive ideology worth it’s salt. And that’s the kind of progressive I’m down for.
You know, I was pretty assured on my line of reasoning here until I read “I wouldn’t date black or Asian folks” and… eeeeh, maybe there’s room for nuance here.
In my defense, I’ll say it’s the way of putting it that feels icky more than the sentiment. But still. Kinda ew. Don’t know if this was a Socratic, reverse psychology thing, but if so, well played.
It’s both really, I actually do hold that viewpoint as described in the original comment, but I also wanted to say it in a way that conveyed why some folks might be made uncomfortable by rhetoric like that.
I definitely agree it’s how you say it - but also where and when and how much you say it.
I think such preferences are fine obviously, but I’d question the motives of anyone who goes around claiming that often and considers it a large part of their identity. Context is everything in the end.
Well, yeah, but that’s the point. It’s “I’m not into that”, as opposed to “I wouldn’t date X type of people”. The point is you can not be into things without it being a political statement. Even if your political line of choice tends to favor a particular aesthetic.
you aren’t obligated to be attracted to anyone.
but if you have a rule that intentionally discriminates someone, then sort of. there’s some work for them to do internally.
Man, that’s even more confused. So you can be heteronormatively horny, but only as long as you acknowledge the possibility of boning outside your comfort zone? If gender nonconforming sex happens in the hypothetical woods does anybody hear it?
Honestly, that’d be kinda funny if it wasn’t such a depressing proxy for leftist purity tests and frequent inability to accept any intermediate states between utopian idealized outcomes and right wing dystopia.
If gender nonconforming sex happens in the hypothetical woods does anybody hear it?
That’s a BrandNewSentence if I’ve ever seen any.
There’s degrees to everything, though. There’s plenty of traits I think are perfectly okay for people to have, but that I’m still not looking for in a partner. So I guess I probably also fail your purity test.
But it feels odd to single them out rather than who would really perpetuate.
You’re right, the difference is that I’m reading it in bad faith and you’re reading it in good faith.
IME of having dated mostly progressive women… they are the ones perpetuating it the most while shouting in public that they aren’t doing that. Or that they can’t be biased because they are women and therefore nothing they think is wrong… only men can be homophobic in their minds.
That sucks, I’m sorry to hear that.
Hopefully your experience is merely anecdotal. I’d need to have some numbers or a study before I change my mind personally though
Just shows how deeply ingrained power relations are in society with an unproportional low complementing awareness and reflection about it.
If he’s a hot twink, then yeah no that’d be fine with me. Perfectly understandable.
There is a weird bias against bisexual men in media. Someone I knew even once said she didn’t believe bisexual men existed, all men are either straight or gay. For me self identification is important. If someone tells me they’re straight but I believe they’re bisexual, I’m going to call them straight.
I’m in my mid thirties, and I’m a bi woman who tends to go for bi men. I was once chatting about one of my exes with my dad and same aged stepsister, when she expressed deep surprise that I would be willing to date a man who had dated a man. My dad agreed, which is par for the course, but I could not for the life of me get a believable answer from my stepsister as to why that would be a dealbreaker.
She had been part of the GSA in one of the most progressive towns in America and was at that time in first cohort of women to join a previously men-only fraternity at her college, so she definitely falls under the progressive umbrella.
I literally can’t think of a reason except for donating blood, but that wasn’t it.
I literally can’t think of a reason except for donating blood, but that wasn’t it.
What is the correlation between donating blood and being homophobic ?
Gay and bi men are often excluded from donating due to higher HIV risk I believe.
For a long time (at least through the late 2010s and possibly still now, I’m no longer a good candidate to donate for other reasons), you couldn’t donate if you were a man who had sex with men (MSM) or if you had had sex with a MSM recently (6 months-2 years). Your own condom use was irrelevant.
I did once decide to stick with hands only with someone because I had an appointment to donate blood later that week. My stepsister wasn’t aware of that restriction though and I can’t imagine it’s the presiding reason why a lot of even queer women aren’t interested in bi men, given the demographics of blood donation.
There are a lot of wild things that preclude you from donating blood depending on where you live though, including time spent in the UK during the mad cow disease spike, even if you were a vegan. I understand that blood donation organizations are working with such large numbers and such a small margin for error that they would rather exclude a thousand good candidates than let one bad candidate donate, but it ends up being extremely discriminatory. I looked for some recent numbers, and it is true that even today the majority of new HIV cases occur in MSM or people who have sex with MSM, but given how widespread HIV suppression treatment is (in the US), correct condom usage reduces that risk to nearly zero.
The FDA actually revised their donor rules for LGBT donors, so many blood donation places, the red cross for example, no longer have this restriction.
It may be a byproduct of some dating issues from before her time dating that got passed down to her. Namely, that lots of gay men were in the closet, and ended up leaving their wife/girlfriend when they came out. And that could have carried through to women thinking it was that, because it’s easier to think the person leaving you doesn’t want women, not just doesn’t want you.
Hopefully that mentality just disappears on its own after awhile. I think it’s already on its way out.
I mean you kinda said the reason yourself: “[she] join[ed] a previously men-only fraternity at her college”. Of course I’m only speculating.
The people she surrounded herself with probably thought that way and thus she thought that way. Most people do not think critically about their beliefs very much, yes even most progressives are just progressives because of the people around them.
Tbh, the fraternity was pretty inclusive. It wasn’t required that they go coed, they just decided to. I do wonder what she’s like now that she’s a lot further removed from her hometown, but I know she’s at least still heavily anti-trump.
So, this woman is an asshole and you big brained your way to blaming men for it??? lol Did you get a temp ban from Reddit or something?
Dude, you have got to stop taking all these ricochets. Not everything is a point to tally in the war between mars and venus.
“Straight” just cause you are in a relationship with a member of another sex doesn’t make you straight.
Yeah that’s the point
Not really, it’s about different perception of bisexuals depending on their gender.
No, it’s about how one gender’s sexual self-identification is taken more seriously than another’s
When I was fairly younger, I was in a relationship with a woman who told me that if she were to learn that I had sex with a man, especially bottoming but also topping (she didn’t use those terms, she used bad terms), then she would feel disgusted and betrayed and would never feel attracted to me again or see me as a man before I said to her that I was disappointed in her, that she had internalised homophobia and that she was a massive hypocrite. Her self proclaimed best male friend presented to the world as flamingly gay, and she was openly bi herself, not as in “I would totally fuck women cause I like the idea of it”, bus as in she had fucked women before and would do it again. Apparently she deserves to be fucked by a real man, which apparently bi men are not. So…yeah, you can be a loudly proclaimed ally AND a member of the LGBTQ community yourself, and still be a disgusting homophobe right alongside the best of bigots.
I have a similar story to share.
When I was in my early 20s I briefly dated a girl who told me she was having feelings for another woman and was being curious, she eventually broke up with me in order to be with her, but we remained good friends after that.
Eventually she came out as a lesbian and when I told her that I was bi she immediately ended our friendship all even yelled some slurs at me.
AFAIK she’s married with a guy and has kids now
Maybe calling women lesbians instead of gay allows people to be homophobic while accepting lesbians. After all, the word was invented by men who thought women couldn’t be gay the way men can.
I’m curious what the people’s opinions are who downvoted you. Do they disagree or are they just angry? If they disagree they should have left a comment explaining why, so I’m assuming they’re irrationally upset and voicing their opinion would make them look bad maybe?
Wow, that’s some intense double standards there.
Wow, that’s some intense double standards there.
That’s an odd way of saying “ubiquitous female standards”.
I know it’s a bit different, but there are cis women out there knowingly dating trans women who’ve likely had sex with men. So common yet, but I think ubiquitous isn’t accurate.
Actually now that I’m thinking about it I knew a girl who hooked up with her gay guy best friend.
I wasn’t commenting on this particular double standard anywhere as much as double standards in general; especially those which are almost exclusively one-way and “acceptable” for only women to hold. That a man trying to employ the same attitudes would be pilloried and castigated to the same degree that women would be lauded and supported.
You’ve just been all over this thread with your misogynistic hot takes and telling people how “all women” act. You should get off the internet for a while.
You’ve just been all over this thread with your misogynistic hot takes and telling people how “all women” act. You should get off the internet for a while.
Mmm-hm. Attempts to socially shame me into silence and an ad hominem on top of that, but not a whisper of a viable rebuttal.
That’s the problem with these censure attempts – always feelings over facts, instead of facts over feelings.
There is nothing you’ve said worthy of rebuttal.
There is nothing you’ve said worthy of rebuttal.
Ah - a sour grapes response!
Don’t worry, I know you had absolutely nothing to counter with once I saw the ad hominem. That’s the problem with intellectual bankruptcy, after all - nothing to work with except rage and other emotions. No facts, only feelings. So out come the personal attacks like the ad hominems, because rage and shame are the only usable tools left.
Eventually she came out as a lesbian and when I told her that I was bi she immediately ended our friendship
Can’t really imagine it. Even stubborn homophobes do not end friendship over someone coming out. A lot of them just become curious and eventually accepting. Am not LGBTQ+ though, so my judgement is kinda not reliable, but still.
The woman you’re talking about is exceptionally weird and she can go fuck herself
Your experience is valid, as it happened to you and none of us in this thread were there probably anyway.
In my experience, friends don’t end friendships over homophobia. They just suddenly become very busy and they have less and less time to spend with the person who comes out as bi.
‘Bi erasure’ is such a common phenomenon that we invented the term ‘bi erasure’.
Also I come from a different background to the most of those who are here. In Russia, we have this state propaganda that seals homophobia and since nobody is trusting the government propaganda, a lot of people are simply curious what it is to be gay (or bi, trans). And homophobia is not typical to what I hear from my peers in the west: it often has somewhat patronizing form of “don’t you know that if you say you’re gay, you’ll get a lot of trouble”. It was literally the thing I said to a lovely gay couple when we went to the bar in Saint Petersburg.
It’s adorable that you think “stubborn homophobes” wouldn’t end a friendship over someone coming out. I genuinely wish they did just become curious and eventually accepting, instead of immediately rejecting and intimidating and expressing feelings of disgust and revulsion.
In my 20s I was this homophobe until a friend came up to me. Maybe it’s my projection, idk
Yeah no i think you just valued that friendship, or your homophobia wasn’t as deep as many’s.
Sorry you had to experience this bullshit. I think people like that lack the emotional intelligence to see other people as equals. Instead they only value them as much as whatever personal satisfaction they extract out of them. Intrinsically you’ve lost nothing of value that day, but I know the sudden betrayal of the friendship you thought you had can be shocking and hurtful.
IME this is incredibly common.
I had a bi girlfriend who was also super uncomfortable with the idea of me being with another man.
I had a bi girlfriend who wanted me to be bi. I’ve seen it go every which way. I’m not sure what the overall social trend is, but people are individuals and can defy your hopes and expectations of them in strange ways, for better or for worse.
I don’t know how common it is, but I’ve had several past girlfriends express internalised homophobia against gay men, bisexuals or lesbians, and that’s too damn high a number since as french leftist, I don’t harmonize with conservative women. When I was younger I was naive or dumb enough to think that we would both grow as people in the relationship and some of my values would rub up on them. Now that would an instant curtain call for me, you can grow up as person in your own time, I have better things to do.
Honestly, while the exact way your ex handled the situation probably wasn’t ideal, this notion is really just an extension of the sexual puritanism that created homophobia in the first place. Imo, we should just accept that people’s sexual desires are what they are. If someone is turned off by bi guys, that’s fine - she doesn’t have to date them. Just like it is perfectly fine to be turned off by people with red hair, or people with annoying laughs, or people who are skinnier or fatter than whatever your personal preference is. Some people aren’t interested in shy people. Some people aren’t interested in dumb people. Some people aren’t interested in poor people. Does it suck when someone you like isn’t interested in you because of something you can’t control? Yes! But at the same time, people’s sexual preferences are also largely outside their control. So why demonize them for them?
Ugh… Thanks for whiteknighting my ex’s being biphobic with your moral relativism.
First of all I don’t know why you felt the need to inject sexual puritanism into the conversation, it’s not really a thing culturally in present day France, especially not in me or my exes mindset or social circles.
Second, don’t give me this your mileage may vary bullshit, some things are objectively bad. Having preferences is fine. Being phobic against a group of people is not. It’s fine to be more easily attracted to tall people, or short, or green eyed, or mixed raced or whatever physical characteristic, as long as it doesn’t turn into a fetish, and I won’t get into that whole other subject. But being repulsed or disliking an entire group of people because of a not morally wrong trait, is objectively wrong and textbook definition of being phobic. Being attracted more easily/often to white people with blue eyes and dimples rather than black people is fine, you like what you like. But being repulsed by all black people, or gingers, or Asians, for the sole reason they are black, or ginger, or Asian, is not. And no, nobody said you owe some random person a shag, just because they’re from a minority. But questioning why someone is repulsed by the entirety of group of people is legitimate. If there’s something universally morally wrong with a group, like fucking Nazis, it’s fine being repulsed. If there’s a rational reason to reject someone, like not wanting to get a in a relationship with a firefighter cause you don’t want a partner who may die in a fire one day, or your sexual orientation is not compatible, then it’s fine rejecting them but not disliking or being repulsed by them. If the only reason you dislike or are repulsed by a group of people is irrational, like they’re a different race or different sexual orientation, then it’s textbook bigotry/phobia, and that’s objectively wrong.
So to go back to the story with my ex; being a bisexual man is not a visual or physical trait. So if you’re a woman who likes having sex with men, and you were to reject or feel disgust for a man you otherwise are attracted to and enjoy having sex with, for the only reason that you can’t deal with the idea/image of him having sex with other men in the past, that’s textbook biphobia and homophobia, and that’s objectively wrong. If you feel so disturbed by this hypothetical, you feel the need to ask me, your partner at the time, a self declared straight man you are in a committed relationship with, if I hid sexual experiences with men from you, to assuage your irrational fears, you’re being biphobic and that’s just wrong. Again, if you’re a woman having sex with men, and don’t trust bisexual men because you think they will cheat with men, guess what, still biphobic, still wrong. Nobody’s demonizing anybody, moral relativism sucks, some things are in fact objectively wrong.
yeah, it’s super weird how desperate people are to rationalize this nonsense.
like… being turned off by someone’s race. it’s just your phobia/racism. it’s not a ‘preference’ like people like to claim. esp if your ‘turned off’ feelings are a product or assumption about that person’s sexuality/race being a crude stereotype or entrenched in outdated nonsense. neither of those things is a choice either.
it’s the idea that they are disgusted/turn off by. it’s not a part of sexuality at all, it’s that they associate negative traits with a certain sexuality. that’s messed up. and it’s also not really rejecting the person, it’s rejecting the category.
But being repulsed by all black people, or gingers, or Asians, for the sole reason they are black, or ginger, or Asian, is not.
So gay men should suck it up and give women a chance?
If the only reason you dislike or are repulsed by a group of people is irrational
Most of attraction/unattraction is not rational. It is emotional. It is a visceral feeling that doesn’t care about logic.
I, personally, don’t like mint chocolate. When I put it in my mouth, I feel a visceral feeling of disgust, and spit it out. There is no logic behind this - it is just what I like and don’t like.
not a visual or physical trait.
I also provided examples of being turned off by people who are shy, dumb, or poor. Again, these are not logical reasonings, but visceral responses to an individual and their traits.
Nobody’s demonizing anybody
You’re demonizing all women who like straight guys but are turned off by bi guys by calling them biphobic.
some things are in fact objectively wrong.
Objectivity is when something is true with no observer present. Morality requires an observer to decree what is right and wrong. This is why we have many philosophical schools of ethics, but only one school of physics (except at the very edge of research).
So gay men should suck it up and give women a chance?
…
“If there’s a rational reason to reject someone, like […]or your sexual orientation is not compatible, then it’s fine rejecting them but not disliking or being repulsed by them.”
Second paragraph, towards the end. So what else didn’t you bother to read / try to understand ?
Are the sexual orientations of gay men and women compatible ? Did I imply that anywhere ?
Most of attraction/unattraction is not rational. It is emotional. It is a visceral feeling that doesn’t care about logic.
I, personally, don’t like mint chocolate. When I put it in my mouth, I feel a visceral feeling of disgust, and spit it out. There is no logic behind this - it is just what I like and don’t like.
We’re not talking about food, were talking about people. If they’re not harming anyone, they deserve to be treated with respect, as equals. Treating people with respect includes overcoming any prejudice you may have internalised growing up. Also having a visceral reaction, not an excuse. Visceral reactions can be questioned, and their causes deconstructed. It is possible to grow up as a person even as adult. Racism is visceral reaction, and it still wrong. At least in the reality of moral objectivism that I live in.
But I am curious, do some groups of people give you a “visceral feeling of disgust” like mint chocolate gives you ? What groups of people would those be ?
I also provided examples of being turned off by people who are shy, dumb, or poor. Again, these are not logical reasonings, but visceral responses to an individual and their traits.
Yeah, and you can choose whomever you like as a partner, but repulsion for an entire group of people not doing any harm like poor people or shy people, is the realm of irrational hatred or fear, and that’s never ok. Or are you saying it’s ok or normal being viscerally repulsed by poor or shy people ?
Again visceral feeling are not an excuse, you’re have higher reasoning, and are supposed to at least try to understand and control your feelings if you want to treat other people fairly. Otherwise there’s no sense of accountability for your actions, you just go by pretending you’re a mere vessel to your emotions, and stay indifferent to how your behaviour affects other people.
You’re demonizing all women who like straight guys but are turned off by bi guys by calling them biphobic.
If the only thing turning off a woman in a man is that he is bisexual then yeah, that’s what being prejudiced is. Same guy, same level of physical attractiveness, just as good a person, but straight : desirable. Exact same person but bisexual man : repulsive and less than a real man. That’s a biphobic woman, she doesn’t see bisexual men as worthy of the same level of respect as straight men, as equals to straight men.
But I get the sense that your ethics and mine don’t mix.
Objectivity is when something is true with no observer present. Morality requires an observer to decree what is right and wrong. This is why we have many philosophical schools of ethics, but only one school of physics (except at the very edge of research).
Look. I’m not a philosopher or a historian of Ideas, so my knowledge of moral relativism and moral objectivism or universalism, is at a highschool level, so I think what I’m saying and how I’m saying is perfectly understandable in every day language without resorting to philosophical semantics (and frankly I don’t even know why you brought up physics in a story about social issues).
In my stance of moral objectivism, I hold my ex accountable for her prejudice against bisexual and gay men, because it’s a stance where seeing bisexual men as inferior and repulsive is wrong regardless of your personal history, culture and upbringing, since being a bisexual man does no harm to anyone and if that bothers you you should get a life.
In your stance of what I see as moral relativism, it’s unfair to hold my ex accountable for her prejudice because the context of her “visceral feeling of disgust” is what is truly important, and she’s just unjustly misunderstood.
Those two stances are not compatible.
your sexual orientation is not compatible, then it’s fine rejecting them but not disliking or being repulsed by them.”
I mean, I’m referring to sexual repulsion. This is typically what people are referring to when they talk about having a preference against some person or other. It manifests as a visceral negative reaction, very similar to what one might feel if they think about eating something they find gross. A gay man would find the idea of sleeping with a woman repulsive. He can still treat women with respect. In the same way, a woman can find the idea of sleeping with a bi guy repulsive, and can still treat bi men with respect. This is an incompatibility in sexual orientation.
Same guy, same level of physical attractiveness, just as good a person, but straight : desirable. Exact same person but bisexual man : repulsive and less than a real man
I could just as easily swap in what kind of shoes the guy wears, the guy’s political affiliation, the accent the guy has, the way he has chosen to style his hair, or literally anything else.
But I am curious, do some groups of people give you a “visceral feeling of disgust” like mint chocolate gives you ? What groups of people would those be ?
Certainly. I’m straight. The idea of sleeping with another man gives me a visceral feeling of disgust. This is fine. I am completely comfortable admitting this, because this is my sexual preference.
Or are you saying it’s ok or normal being viscerally repulsed by poor or shy people?
It is 100% okay to feel whatever feelings one feels. If the thought of sleeping with someone who is poor or shy is repulsive to you, then that is fine. You don’t have to sleep with them.
and frankly I don’t even know why you brought up physics in a story about social issues
Because I don’t think you know what the word “objective” means.
The Aztecs thought it was right to sacrifice children to the gods by cutting their hearts out. We don’t. Moral relativism says that both of these points of view are equally valid in their respective cultures. I happen to think that this is more or less the correct point of view, since any kind of objective morality is literally impossible because all morality is is values, and values are pure subjectivity. But that’s an academic distinction.
My point fits squarely within good ol’ fashioned liberal western ethics, which you identified as “does no harm to anyone”.
Being sexually repulsed by bisexual men, and expressing this preference by simply not sleeping with them harms no one.
I could give a detailed answer like I did till now but why bother.
No to all you’ve just said.
Also moral relativism and nihilism is edgelord garbage, I thought so when I was a highschooler and I always will. You can and you should have some universalism regarding morals. You shouldn’t fuck children, no matter the culture or time in history. Pain is also universal and so is the evil of inflicting it for pleasure or callousness. I could go on but you and I have nothing to say to each other.
Sounds like you’ve realized I’m right but just don’t want to admit it.
Apparently she deserves to be fucked by a real man, which apparently bi men are not.
I would categorize it as a weird fetish and leave her by herself with it
The funniest part about this to me is that the AIDs epidemic actually forced medical researchers to accept that sometimes guys have sex with other guys, and they even created the term “Men who have Sex with Men” or MSM to cover this fact, since they aren’t necessarily gay or bi.
Like, society needs to get over this. Sometimes people have sex with other people. Sometimes they happen to be different genders, sometimes they’re the same. It only means whatever it means to the people fucking and little else
Did they say no homo first?
No but they kept their socks on so it’s good
Am I weird if I like to keep my socks on?
I had a gay friend who up on learning of that “get out of gay free card” said “well shit I guess I’ve been straight all this time!”
The no homo spell kills aids.
i do wild shit to make the girls im dating lose attraction for me all the time. burping really loud constantly, saying the word “COCKS” when i sneeze, crying about wall-e, shitting with the door open. who cares?
There’s a streamer who I use to follow. Use to because she slowly went alt right. Anyway, one of her hangups with partners was refusing to date any man she suspected of being bi because she didn’t want a penis that was up an ass in her. She also believes that most men are bisexual. She probably only dates men who are vocally homophobic.
Used to, not use to
how does she feel about her ass being penetrated her or penetrating a guy’s ass?
The less I know about her opinions on sex, the better. She seemed to believe any outrageous sex act was more common than it probably was and decry the loss of common sense.
Did her streamer name coincidentally have something to do with 👟⬇️👨?
No. Cherries is my only hint.
Ah yes, the gacha nazi and TERF activist with the weird rape fantasies. God, most Vtubers really are a bunch of scum!
Good on you for not falling into that trap
She’s really the exception as far as vtubers go. Lots of trans and allies in that sphere. Being able to use a digital avatar to represent yourself lends itself to trans people.
She use to be fun to watch, but that’s about 2 years ago at this point.
She probably only dates men who are vocally homophobic.
You mean the ones who’re in the closet?
This is how she encounters so many closeted gay men.
Please don’t equivocate homophobia with closeted homosexuality.
There are tons of homophobes who aren’t in the closet, and tons of gay guys in the closet who aren’t homophobic. Not to mention that using this as an ‘attack’ toward a homophobe is literally using gay as an insult, which is the same thing homophobes do.
It does gay people no good.
So, she refuses anal… does she also refuse oral?
I know she makes her boy friends buy new sex toys cause instead of reusing one from previous partners. Honestly, anyone who would actually get with her deserves everything.
ehh… Sex toys are kind of a private and personal thing. I’m all for resusing and that, but I also wouldn’t expect someone to reuse my old partners underwear, or toothbrush.
Maybe, but I feel like if you’re going to be that way, maybe bring your own instead of making your partner buy new ones.
bi-/homophobic steamer went alt right you say?
sounds like she didn’t really “go” alt right as much as she came out as alt right. phrasing intended.
Her pronouns became alt/right you say?
True, but that’s semantics and I wasn’t going to write an essay on my phone.
wasn’t intended as a rebuttal
She also believes that most men are bisexual.
It’s funny, because I see so much bi-erasure among gay friends. The idea that every dude is a 6 on the Kinsey Scale and just suffering through straight sex because they don’t know any better is stubbornly resilient.
I mean, yeah. Most men are probably somewhat bi, but the idea that most men will seek out other men or even admit to not being repulsed by other men laughable.
I remember back in highschool, a guy being so defensive, he would even describe what another guy looked like. I’m a straight guy, but I don’t have any issues being able to describe another guy as conventionally attractive.
I have no issues acknowledging a conventionally attractive guy, I do however seem to have absolutely no notion of what this actually looks like. I know by dint of existing in the 21st century that Brad Pitt, George Clooney etc are considered attractive, but for the life of me I couldn’t take that knowledge and apply it to someone else. I can spot an egregiously “unattractive” dude, but there’s a very broad spectrum of men that just look like “blokes” to me.
This was the 2000’s and I just used “wouldn’t look out of place in as a magazine model”, which while is a high standard, still has a lot of variety.
Do the men she fucks not wash their junk?
Some homophobes think touching their own genitals would be homosexual, so they don’t wash them.
This is one of those things that I see mentioned now and then (and I feel like at some point, someone was able to back it up maybe?), but my brain just refuses to accept that it’s real. It just… cannot be real. No. I refuse.
Easy solution, only date bottoms
I’m a woman who is straight AF, not a bicurious-bone in my body that I’ve discovered yet, and I’m having a casual fling with a bisexual dude. It doesn’t bother me at all, he’s hot as fuck, sweet as hell, we have a good time together, and I have better things to do with my life than sit around and brood about the gender of his previous partners.
But why do you care? Why does it matter? How does it affect you in any material way?
Why do they care that he’s bisexual? They’re saying they don’t.
Wow. I can’t read at all. I think I was on painkillers when I commented. Lol
Haha, no problem, yo. :p
Recommended reading: “Bi: Notes for a Bisexual Revolution”, by Shiri Eisner
I think the difference is the perceived energy barrier if one wanted to fool around on their partner if they a bi vs het.
A bi guy could, hypothetically, find a guy on grindr pretty much on a whim if he wanted to. This is a much lower barrier than straight guys face unless they seek a sex worker. If you are a woman in the early stages of dating someone, where you don’t know yet how much you can trust a guy, if a guy tells you he is bi that can come off as a higher cheating risk than a straight guy.
Straight guys dating a bi-girl don’t have a similar perceived risk increase. Early in the relationship, guys may not even see the potential of a bi-girl hooking up with a girl as ‘cheating’, vs a bonus for his enjoyment. But also - finding a new girl to date is considered harder than finding an interested guy. So the ‘cheating’ risk doesn’t feel that much higher for guys dating a bi-girl compared to a straight girl; he may feel like he is still mostly competing against other guys.
Is this fair or even realistic? No, this is based on perceived stereotypes rather than the behaviors and character of individuals.
But this plays out at a stage of dating where people don’t know each other well yet and are relying on heuristics.
So they prefer to be with someone who would cheat at the first occasion but the occasion is hard to find than with someone who has no problem to find an occasion but decides not to?
I’d rather be disappointed early than wasting years on a scumbag
To be fair, this kind of kinetics-as-pevention works.
I use this strategy to prevent eating too many snacks – I do not keep them at home. I can’t have them if they are not here. If 90% of the time I would “choose” not to have chips, not-having-them stops me the other 10%
Maybe it works, I wouldn’t build a relationship on this principle though
I wouldn’t date snacks either but i’m sure someone got offended by this remark. Weird times.
It’s also that gay sex is gross, and lesbian sex is ‘hot’.
The policing around male sexuality is far more intense than it is around female sexuality. Also applies to sexual assault and statutory rape. a lady does it, NBD, if a guy does it, it’s a heinous act.
Further, how many people agonize about female pedophiles vs male pedophiles?
how many people agonize about female pedophiles vs male pedophiles?
What makes this statement even more horrifying is that more and more evidence is emerging that - like with cross-gender rape between adults - rates of pedophilia in the general population seems to be about 50/50 between the genders.
As in, it is equally as likely for a child to be preyed upon by a woman as a man.
And society doesn’t give two shits about female pedophiles or their victims. Hell, if the pedophile gets pregnant, the government will even gleefully re-victimize the victim on a monthly basis the moment he hits legal adulthood by forcing him to pay child support to their rapist.
Now, for the purest example of anti-male gender bigotry, examine the fury and outrage if the genders were reversed.
Seriously, if a female pedo gets pregnant by her victim, that child needs to be taken away from her and put up for adoption. No way a young victim should be held responsible because that bitch raped him.
Sorry, female pedos are as repulsive and degenerate as male pedos. All the stories of kiddie diddlers that are female teachers or nannies make me ill and inspire violence (which I refrain from) but they deserve to be locked up…for good.
Early in the relationship, guys may not even see the potential of a bi-girl hooking up with a girl as ‘cheating’, vs a bonus for his enjoyment.
Oh boy is that a land-mine I’ve stepped on.
A real, “wait I don’t understand what do you mean you’re in love with her?” moment that rang my bell back in my 20s. And then they ran off and got married. Which… hey, at some point how can you even be mad? They were clearly very happy together. Still sort of sucks to find out your axle was actually a third wheel.
