Crypto has its issues, but when used as an actual payment system, it’s a great alternative for online payments, and can give more privacy and anonymity if used correctly
Perhaps, but bitcoin isn’t exactly the best example of that.
Yes, I believe bitcoin is not a good crypto overall. It’s only the oldest and most famous one, but fails on many sides
Yes. It was an amazing proof of concept, but it has been surpassed on all fronts.
except for the insane fluctuations in currency value and the immense inefficiency of the whole system and all the fraud even in “stable” coins and all the lack of regulation
The lack of regulation is pretty much a goal. When a government controls or regulate a currency, your liberty is attacked.
Fraud? What are you talking about?
How is the system inefficient though? Compared to what? I don’t believe it’s fair to compare a decentralized system to a centralized one. Lemmy is much more expensive to run per user than Reddit for example
Fluctuations suck indeed, though they vary, it depends of the crypto
By inefficiency I just mean transactions per kWh. It’s insane how expensive cryptocurrencies can get.
Sadly true for PoW cryptos. Luckily, PoS exists, but it might not work with every crypto.
More kWh = more secured chain, that’s currently how it works. At this point blocks are going to be mined anyways, so let’s fill those blocks
The lack of regulation is pretty much a goal. When a government controls or regulate a currency, your liberty is attacked.
If your argument hinges on avoiding regulation, then it’s guaranteed to fail. Having oversight is not a bad thing.
The idea of positive self-regulation, especially of a currency in a capitalist system, is pure fantasy.
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“Insane fluctuations in currency value”: Someone who makes most of their payments in crypto is likely doing it with a stablecoin, which is a cryptocurrency pegged 1-to-1 to a fiat currency, like the US dollar. So, no more wild fluctuations than the 10% decrease in value the USD has experienced over the past year. Speaking of which, the 100% increase in BTC value this past year certainly is wild, but I don’t think any of it’s holders would consider that a problem.
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“Immense inefficiency of the whole system”: If you consider the US military to be the value security for the world’s dominant fiat currency [which you would be foolish not to] Proof of Work security is a large improvement on energy use. Proof of Stake security, which most stablecoins use these days, doesn’t really use any energy worth noting.
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“All the fraud”: Credit cards suffer far more fraud than crypto. Perhaps that’s a product of their wider adoption, but that’s where 99% of the fraud is happening.
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“The lack of regulation”: One of the hottest topics in US congress over the past several years, for both Biden and Trump regimes, has been crypto regulation. It’s a moving space right now but it seems myopic to call lack of regulation when it’s certainly going to be a moot point by 2028.
Sorry I don’t really consider myself to be some crypto warrior but I do really dislike these decade+ old off the cuff relatively low-information talking points. This is not how you argue against crypto, if you want a strong argument against crypto come at it from an explicitly anti-capitalist lens and accuse it of accelerating global financialization, which it is, like a gas can poured on a campfire. Go big or go home. If you don’t oppose capitalism and you’re just looking for a better money, crypto is not your boogeyman.
Stronger argument is that deflationary currency is not something someone with an investment mind wants to spend. Which is why there is the same price fixation and attempts to hype up crypto like stocks because most people got into it not to spend it, but hold onto it like an asset. Its why people encourage rebuying crypto if you use it to buy something to replenish their balance to not regret having wasted what could be a house to get a slice of pizza.
Now sure there are stable coins but that is more used by investors to move assets around exchanges to then go and buy other crypto that they believe will return a profit or move into when they believe a dip is occuring so they can reenter later to expand their assests by buying low. Pretty much most crypto communities are highly fixated on price as opposed to treating it like currency that should be spent. It’s always this is the next big thing, it is going to moon, hodl, etc.
So I guess point is as much as people like to act like they are anticapitalist the culture of crypto once prices started going up is pursuit of capitalism and wealth hording. The values people claim to have was most present when crypto was new and people were giving it away, having fun spending it, and transacting it. But, then greed took over as people saw people becoming millionaires and billionaires for holding what they got early.
It’s ironic looking at it now given the state of dogecoin but that maintained the original spirit of crypto for a really long time before it too skyrocketed in price and got pulled into the same asset category.
You speak of Gresham’s Law, which is “bad money beats good money”. For payments, people would rather part with an inflationary asset than deflarionary because of future value. Definitely the thing that has settled the argument over Bitcoin’s primary use case.
Agreed re: the faux anticapitalism. I mean, ideologically I think of myself as anticapitalist. But I have to afford things to not be destitute within this economic regime, so I “play the game”. But I wouldn’t delude myself into thinking that advocating for one sort of money over another is in any way a stance against capitalism. In most cases it isn’t even a stance against status quo.
It cool to know there is a term for currency people don’t want to spend. That was a fun read.
As someone who used to be (but no longer is) into crypto: These statements are all technically accurate to some degree, but are missing extremely important nuance.
The stablecoins part is accurate. Most purchases made in crypto are with stablecoins.
What’s missing here is the fact that these stablecoins are issued and controlled by private companies, or would be influenced by them otherwise. For example, Circle issues USDC, one of the most popular dollar stablecoins. (as well as EURC for Euros)
Circle holds real dollars in real bank accounts to back USDC. Circle can also freeze your balance and blacklist addresses, because they don’t want their banks to stop working with them. That’s it. They can unilaterally stop you from using your USDC.
Other mechanisms for keeping a stablecoin at $1, such as algorithmic pegs, failed spectacularly many times, the most famous of which being the Terra disaster.
Some other stablecoins use centralized coins as backing to then issue new coins. (e.g. 1 STABLECOIN is backed by 1 USDC, and can be exchanged freely) These coins could then be in trouble if they’re used enough for fraud, and Circle just blocks the coin itself from exchanging between itself and USDC to maintain the peg, making it worthless. This is an inherent risk. You either use a centralized platform less accountable than card companies, or you use a third party backed by that centralized asset that could face peg issues.
As for the inefficiency, it’s actually true that PoW is being phased out by most chains other than Bitcoin for PoS, which is incredibly energy efficient by comparison. Truly, it’s actually just pretty energy efficient. This isn’t missing much nuance, though you could argue that the financial mechanisms used by the systems running on top of a PoS consensus mechanisms are still complex in their own right.
For the fraud part, this is only half accurate. Fraud in crypto has been on the rise, and while it’s maintained itself at a level lower than credit card fraud, this is also because of the limited scope in which crypto operates. If crypto were to be used in more situations like credit cards are, then there would be more opportunities to be defrauded in the first place.
The majority of activity in crypto operates within speculative markets, protocols offering yield farming and staking, liquidity pooling, vote bribing, and an untold number of other mechanisms that exist. As such, scammers are mostly limited to tricking people in the field of investments.
If crypto was also used to pay your bills, for your purchases at the store, for every rideshare and food delivery app, and to pay friends back for dinner, then the scope of fraud becomes much larger.
Crypto does not have less fraud because it is fundamentally better at preventing it, crypto has less fraud because it’s used in less circumstances.
(There is also an argument to be made that many investments in crypto that don’t work out because of rugpulls, failed promises, unaccountable DAO leaders, etc, aren’t counted in fraud statistics, and that the number should be much higher)
Now, finally, as for regulation, it’s true that crypto has seen much more regulation than it used to have, but it’s only getting a bit stronger, and is nowhere near the sheer quantity of regulations that financial corporations have to follow, though some are technically not necessary for crypto as most crypto is already transparent via the blockchain’s very structure, and thus doesn’t require some of the transparency regulations corporations often follow.
Crypto still lags far behind, and there’s a degree to which it physically can’t be regulated in the first place. For example, you can’t regulate how the Uniswap exchange handles user funds, because the code for Uniswap has already been immutably deployed to its respective chains.
If a system is built on rejecting authority, there will always be a degree to which justifiable authority that could protect people becomes impossible by its very nature.
I’m not wholly against any possible use of crypto. If someone being, say, censored by payment processors is able to use crypto to send money home to their family, or pay for a thing the corporations currently deem to not be nice for their brand image, that’s all well and fine.
But as a whole, crypto is nowhere near being more beneficial than harmful.
Very useful addendums. I agree with pretty much all of this, I just didn’t say most of it for the sake of brevity. Overall though yes, when taking apart individual arguments quickly like I did one does lose the whole picture in order to be exacting about specific points.
As for crypto being more harmful than beneficial overall? I agree with that too. It’s just that I feel that way about all money under capitalism. For me that kind of goes without saying. Money under capitalism is overall more harmful than beneficial. However, is crypto less beneficial to the average individual than fiat? …In most cases still, also yes lol. But there are plenty of edge cases.
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It’s a pyramid scheme.
I imagine you believe the stocks market is also a pyramid scheme?
He’s not wrong…
who?
The person implying that the stock market is a pyramid scheme.
:(
That’s not what a pyramid scheme is
The one is used by the mafia, the other is the mafia. Which one are you siding with?
The mafia, they seem to have all the money.
what
Steam and itch have had to remove porn games because Mastercard and Visa don’t like them
Not even that. It was because a disingenuous psychopath raised a big stink to the payment processors that Steam and itch rely on. As long as they want to process payments they unfortunately need the companies and have to appease them. The best thing we could do is raise a bigger opposite stink.
I think the best thing we can do is create long-term alternatives. But I do think that the most reasonable, effective, productive thing we can do is to just collectively harass the credit card companies harder than some outspoken religious nuts do to prevent them from caving to censorship demands.
Yeah I don’t understand the meme
Crypto grifters trying to capitalize on the payment processor censorship drama (by portraying it as pushing people towards crypto)
Which is funny because many crypto people don’t spend it like currency because to them it is another asset they hope rises in value like stocks to get rich like the early bitcoin holders. And it’s why many if they spend it go and rebuy the same amount to not get spenders remorse in the future spending what could have been a house on a video game.
Now I know the decentralized value of crypto and the tech is cool. Just more sick of the overall greedy culture around it of people wanting to get rich quick off it, but masquerading around as though they actually care about the tech or are anti-capitalist. When it really is just about trying to get rich.
Crypto is still a scam.
Bitcoin is not crypto
it’s literally called a “cryptocurrency”.
Yes but they are still very different things.
only if you change the definition of “crypto”.
Many would argue that there needs some distinction between them. The ongoing joke is “Shitcoin” as many have abandoned the benefits of bitcoin.
Wtf are you talking about??? Bitcoin is THE cryptocurrency.
And specifically bad for this.
Only way out is communism. Pick yoir flavor.
What…
The only way out of crypto is full blow communism? Those are the two options?
This doesn’t even make any sense. Just use cash if you hate cards. Most places actually will love you for this.
Fuck crypto.
Doesn’t work for online stuff. This is probably referencing how steam was recently forced to can a bunch of its porn games to appease payment processors.
Congratulations, you have the same ideas than Bitcoin’s creator. And he created Bitcoin just for that to also happen online
I guess the dollar might need to end, but for different reasons.
As long as Trump is in power, he can in principle just print as many dollars as he wants to and spend them on what he likes.
The mechanism is by (ab-)using the Federal Reserve bank. It hands out “loans” to the government, the government never really has to pay them back. (it’s called national debt)
Ending the existence of the dollar seems to be the only real way to take a money-printing machine out of Trump’s hands.
I’m not saying this lightheartedly, just considering the options.
This is called debt monetisation and has been forbidden by law in the US since 1981.
well then it’s good that Trump always adheres to the law
Crypto is to peacocking men what MLMs is to american housemoms.
A lot of crypto relies on greater fools, but not all of it.
You’re right. Those who scam everybody else get to really benefit from crypto. Much like MLMs.
The main reason I don’t care for bitcoin is I have to count a bunch zeros after the decimal point, before reaching a useful number. $1 = 0.000006128921 btc? Really? Screw those zeroes. Bitcoin is inefficient in so many ways.
Things are often measured in mBTC or µBTC for this exact reason.
Just as you don’t measure the length of an ant in meters, you measure it in millimeters.
But you never see milliBTC or µBTC. Your post is literally the first time I see µBTC. No normal person knows how to type µ, let alone knowing what it means or how many eggs that buys. My crypto currency converter doesn’t even use µBTC.
mBTC and satoshis (10^-8) are more common indeed, but are used pretty much everywhere. It’s not 2015 anymore
Yeah no. I’m all over the place, and I have yet to come across a place that accepts crypto, let alone for anything useful.
It’s one of the least bad things about it, and if not for approximately twelve thousand bad things about it, would be easily fixable.
If that’s the biggest complaint you have about it, it’s probably not that bad.
I don’t mind Bitcoin itself, but I do hate the ads and NFTs and pump and dump scams, obviously
Bitcoin is its own worst enemy. It’s deflationary, speculative, and largely interacted with by centralized entities. Those things means its unlikely to be successful as an actual currency; even one it hopes to be.
It’s been surpassed by new blockchains in all dimensions except market cap
Such as?
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Bitcoin for market cap
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Solana for transactions, throughput and scalability
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Polkadot or Cosmos for interoperability
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Ethereum for everything else (developer, activity, economic activity, regulatory, governance, decentralisation etc.)
Cool, ty!
I also hear alot about Monero from the privacy crowd.
Any thoughts?
Monero is opt-in privacy so not ideal, but it’s the most popular privacy preserving coin, so it’s most popular for illicit dark web purchases
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1 dollar is currently worth .0000084 BTC; or, 840 Satoshi if zeros scare you.
What if foreign words scare me more?
The person you’re replying to loves republicans, so they should be familiar with the concept.
This person I’m replying to loves eating their own poop.
I’m using the same amount of proof they did for this claim.
If you’re paying for small good (25-50$) you usually pay in “Satoshis” 0.00000001 BTC. If you convert it to dollars, 10 satoshis is 1 cent.
And twenty bucks to the Chinese miners as a “transaction free”.
Lightning network, taproot, all that shit, just paper over the fact that Bitcoin cannot, by design, handle enough transaction volume to become a general purpose currency without reinventing a lot of mostly centralized payment infrastructure.
Lightning is generally pretty stupid
I still haven’t come across anywhere, or any reason, to buy goods with BTC. I look for things I need, not ways to spend. I have these beautiful apps showing me clearly how to buy bitcoin, but no one is giving me any reason to do it. What am I supposed to do with a satoshi? Groceries? Nope. Furniture? Nope. Housing? Nope. A T-shirt with some BTC logo on it? 🤨
The only reason I’ve ever used crypto is to buy DIY HRT and other drugs off the internet :)
Anything you can buy cocaine with is fiat currency imo
Case in point
It was far less valuable when it first started becoming trendy. 1 BTC for a pizza, or whatever. Now it’s turned into a hyperinflation wheelbarrow kind of situation.
Exact opposite of hyperinflation
1 BTC for a pizza, or whatever
10 000 BTC for 1 pizza…
hyperinflation
Deflation . This is literally what happens to any volute that cannot be printed indefinitely. The situation is complicated by the fact that many wallets are simply lost and bitcoins will never be recovered from them.
They should bring in subunits like an MMO. 1 bitcoin (118905USD) = 100 bitsilver 1 bitsilver (1189.05USD) = 100 bitcopper 1 bitcopper = 11.89USD
It doesn’t even make any different to the number of bitcoin used, its just a more user friendly way of displaying it for small purchases.
Transfer failed.
Oh, no! You’re out of GAScoins!
SPECIAL OFFER: Fill Your GAScoin Tank Before 12:00 AM EST Friday and Log On for 7 Consecutive Days for a Chance to Win 10,000 Golden Eagles, a One-of-a-Kind Chug Jug Skin for Your Bitcopper Coins, and an Exclusive Golden Tesla Cybertruck Mount!
They already do that with SI prefixes.
This already exists. 1 bitcoin = 1,000 mBTC = 100,000,000 satoshi. The exchange rate as of writing is about 846 satoshis = 1 USD or 982 satoshis = 1 EUR. The current usage is thusly:
- Transaction fees on the main network are measured in sats/B (satoshis per [virtual] byte [of transaction size]).
- Transactions on the Lightning Network, a lower-fee instant payment network that runs on top of the ordinary Bitcoin network, are all denominated in respect to satoshis. So a payment on the Lightning Network is traditionally regarded as, for example, 50,000 satoshis rather than 0.5 mBTC or 0.0005 BTC. And the fee on that payment is usually in the range of 50-100 satoshis.
- Goods sold on the Lightning Network are typically priced in satoshis.
Monkey brain no like small numbers. Monkey brain like big numbers.
But for real, Bitcoin was the first decentalized currency to solve the Byzantine Generals Problem. Its worth something because its transparent, unmutable, and the original digital currency. It was birthed via grassroot origins in depths of the housing crash. It calls out the Federal Reserve (and any other human institution that seeks to expand their money supply).
Honestly, what’s the point of a credit card? Why don’t people mostly use debit cards? It gets just directly wire transferred from your account. No sort of junk fees or monthly subscription needed. Genuine Question.
My debit card is a master card.
They still need to go through a payment processor, using a debit instead of credit card isn’t really the solution to the current problems.
I buy stuff for work with my personal card and I’ve made probably thousands of dollars from the cash back. Even on my regular cards I get a couple hundred back off of stuff I normally buy.
There’s other benefits too like using points to buy plane tickets, fancy lobbies in the airport with free food, etc.
Because I have to. A lot of platforms literally don’t support debit cards.
A lot of platforms literally don’t support debit cards.
You can get a Visa debit card from your bank; everyone takes Visa.
I’m EU based. We don’t have visa debit cards
The EU has Visa debit cards.
I am in EU, but likely a different country. I dont think we do Visa credit cards here, the only credit card around is Mastercard, all Visas are debit. Weird how that’s different
I’m in France. Pretty much everyone has a Visa debit card.
“Debit” in the United States refers to chip-and-PIN transactions only (though tap-and-PIN is also now a thing). The US debit card networks process only in-person transactions because their fees are limited by law and the risk of fraud is lower for chip-and-PIN compared to the “trust me bro” of online card transactions.
All other transactions processed through the Visa or Mastercard network are treated as credit card transactions for the purposes of processing the transaction on the network, even if the underlying card is a debit card.
If someone steals your debit card, they can directly take money out of your account. With credit cards, there’s a buffer between the product and the bank account, and it makes it easier to stop fraud
This problem could be solved.
Well not to stop it before it happens, surely, but an easier time reclaiming your money due to the buffer.
It’s not fraud, it’s interest.
If you use a debit card and can’t cover a transaction, it just doesn’t go through. If you have a credit card then the bank pays and now you owe them, and they’ll charge you extra for that privilege.
You could just pay off your balance by the due date and you won’t be charged any interest.
But is it really worth all of the junk that you have to accept? I like the credit scoring, the monthly subscription, and, if you miss the date for paying back, the absurdly high fees. Well, yes, with the debit card you have, technically speaking, the risk of someone being able to make about 100€ worth of RFID payments, and then the code is needed again for the next 100€ RFID payments. For everything else that doesn’t involve RFID, the code is needed always.
The US implementation of chip and PIN left off the PIN. The reason given was “no one wants to put in a PIN every time” so for the vast majority of transactions you just hold up your card to the sensor or put it in the chip reader. PIN is only required for cash withdrawals in my experience.
Jesus Christ, that is absolutely moronic. No wonder people are so obsessed with losing their card.
What junk? Works same as a debt card but just not directly tied to a checking account, so less a big deal if it is lost or false charges made on it with companies reversing it. Get cashback on purchases, additional warranty on items, and able to do charge backs if company isn’t giving you a refund for whatever reason.
Most people who run into trouble are because they don’t realize credit cards aren’t free money so go beyond their budget. If you spend what you can afford and pay back each month question becomes more why should a debit card be used over a credit card?
Debit cards typically have PIN numbers.
I know these can be defeated in various ways, but its not usually as simple as, just steal someone’s card.
Also, you can just go to your bank or credit union, call them, report online or w/e: Hey, my card got stolen, these txns are fraud.
Might not be as streamlined or as fast as a payment challenge with a credit card, but its not that much worse.
I’ve had my debit card information stolen before. My bank knew before I did, cancelled the fraudulent charges, and refunded my money without any action on my part. Doesn’t seem like a credit card would have been any advantage in my [admittedly anecdotal] case.
Banks can, but they’re not legally obligated to. With a credit card they are. (US)
Because people are reliant on debt because wages haven’t kept pace with expected standards of living.
Of for more ago well off people some cards offer perks like cash back or air miles and it’s free if you pay it off in full each month.
Also, in my country at least, you get more protection if you have an issue with the goods you’ve bought. https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/reclaim/section75-protect-your-purchases/
I live off a credit card, my money sits inside an offset account against my home loan the interest charged on that is calculated every 30 days at the end of the month so the more cash I have in there the less interest I pay on my mortgage.
The credit card is free with no fees or interest provided I pay it off on time with that date being every 30 days from the 15th of the month.
Thus at the end of the month when interest is calculated on my home loan I have more cash in my account then I would if I had of spent 2k that month on bills etc.
The other benefit is I earn points that the bank will exchange for cash with me so it’s kinda like free money.
For context I’m Australian with an Australian bank.
This set up is great if you’re disciplined for anyone due to the points etc however if you screw up spend beyond your means etc you will incur interest and that’s not good.
I make sure to never spend more then I actually have and it has worked wonders for me.
In the past 10 years I’ve probably been made about 7k back in points value.
Cash flights etc all for spending exactly as I do.
I should note the card is provided to me as part of my home loan package hence it has no fees attached as I pay an upfront cost for the “home loan wealth package”
i’ll add an extra to this on the cashback etc
credit card companies charge stores processing fees, and then give consumers cash backs to encourage them to spend using their cards
stores add credit card processing into their cost of doing business… you’re charged that in the cost of things you purchase
if you pay with a credit card, you get some of that back. if you don’t pay with a credit card, you’re still charged the fees - you just don’t get any of the benefits
The latest that drives me mad is the 1.5 surcharge they’re putting on pay wave transactions now.
They pushed it free convenient etc etc and now charge extra for it regardless of debit or credit card
whaaaat? where is doing this? i haven’t seen it, and would ABSOLUTELY boycott the shit out of it
Fiscally responsible people do it because of the cash back/perks and 0% interest.
Fiscally irresponsible people do it because ‘free money’ (ignoring the 28% annual interest).
Credit cards also offer better consumer protections than debit cards. Ex: chargebacks.
This is not true for many countries. Debit cards in my country have equal or even better consumer protections than credit cards and are also cheaper.
It’s true in the United States. In the US, a debit card transaction is an EFTPOS (electronic funds transfer at point of sale) and once you enter your PIN, there are no take-backs and if you want a refund and the merchant refuses, you have to resort to the legal system for recourse. Credit cards, on the other hand, have consumer protection rules and dispute procedures.
Fiscally irresponsible
I mean, there are people who just don’t have the money for a needed “purchase” (like medical care, transportation, or food), and hope they’ll be able to get a better job or make more money in the future to pay it off later. Been there.
I’ve just got rid of my credit card after 10 years in NA. Yes it can come in handy if you need a couple grand all of a sudden but damn, what a ball and chain, I hated it
Because many people don’t actually have the money on hand. Some do but me and many others are spending money we don’t have yet. It’s a negative feedback loop of debt because capitalism sucks
Tons of cards have zero fees. Some offer rewards and benefits at no real cost. I have for nearly a decade used a card with 1% back on purchases and 1% back on payments. Running all my usual spending through that and then just paying it off has net me a lot of money in that time that I just use for statement credit.
It’s easy to dispute charges should I ever need to. Rare since I’m cautious anyways, but the extra layer before my actual bank account is nice.
It has also built up a hell of a credit rating for me as well.
I am usually cautious with claims of free money. There is no free money for working class people. So, who’s paying it in that case and for what reason? I reckon the company who is running the platform does it, such that they can get market share to coerce sellers into using their product.
Or am I seeing this wrong?
I will agree that a credit card only really made any sense as I began to finally gain more financial independence. Before then, it was pointless.
The claim is that they are giving you a portion of the merchant fee for utilizing said credit cards.
I’m sure they also make money by selling all your info.
You can get 2% cards with no fees now as well. 2% on everything.
Paid cards go up to 6%, or possibly higher.
You can game this system if you don’t have debt on them.
The insane thing about Bitcoin’s continued popularity is that out of all the thousands of cryptocurrencies out there, it’s easily the worst in every regard.
I’m not going to name names for fear of being called a shill, but if you want a cryptocurrency for just buying stuff there’s a ton that are more stable, faster, don’t cost a fortune to process, and don’t destroy the planet.
i wouldn’t be suprised if even Dogecoin works better that Bitcoin. then again monero is the most private
It dominates because it’s the one that everyone knows. If you’re lucky enough to find a shop that accepts crypto it’s almost certain that the crypto they accept is bitcoin and bitcoin only. despite its flaws it is a proven technology. It might 3 hours to send an on chain payment but you don’t have to worry about a technical glitch dropping it.
I somewhat agree about it being not great though. it has serious scalability issues that were supposed to be addressed by lightning but lightning adds a lot of complexity imo. My grandma is never going to be able to figure out how to use lightning whilst still being able to benefit from a self custody wallet.
A lot of the newer coins that crypto bros bang on about seem to be centralized under private entities, “regulation friendly” and not distributed.
And it’s not even close to private.
That’s the beauty of crypto, there’s flavour for everyone
Bitcoin’s transfer fees alone are huge. It’s over $1 USD now for any transfer, and it will get much worse.
I remember launching my wallet that I hadn’t touched for years and I was hit with many days of syncing. It basically had to download gigabytes of data about blockchain since the last time I touched the wallet. I was blown away by the inefficiency and resource usage for seemingly simple things
Yeah, but one is extra bad for our enviroment while being a scam.
I am NOT a crypto fan, but not all cryptocurrencies are bad for the environment. Ethereum is proof of stake.
That’s what i thought, too. I would never believed if someone telled me some years ago that there will be another scam (ai) that wastes even more power.
totally agree re bitcoin, and also am very sceptical of crypto as a mass-adopted currency in general
however there are plenty of networks that don’t use proof of work to validate their chains, and they aren’t bad for the environment to nearly the same degree
Over 52% of the bitcoin network is renewable energy and growing. Y’all need to update your info, damn
It’s wasting useful energy, and you think that’s a good thing?
Nope not what I’m saying
Yes, but that still means that the other half is fossil fuel.
Bitcoin mining’s distribution makes it difficult for researchers to identify the location of miners and electricity use. It is therefore difficult to translate energy consumption into carbon emissions. As of 2025, a non-peer-reviewed study by the Cambridge Centre for Alternative Finance (CCAF) estimated that bitcoin consumed 138 TWh (500 PJ) annually, representing 0.5% of the world’s electricity consumption and resulting in annual greenhouse gas emissions of 39.8 Mt CO2, representing 0.08% of global emissions and comparable to Slovakia’s emissions.
I think people should really reconsider using PoW cryptocurrencies. Ethereum was able to reduce their energy consumption by 99.95% by switching to PoS.
Compared to our current system though? How much does the entire banking and credit card industry contribute to emissions for almost the same service? Bitcoin incentivises energy companies to mine BTC with excess energy.
I think what I’d suggest is that the entire global banking and credit card industry is likely to contribute more in total to our climate catastrophe, just due to the difference in scale between that and a relatively small and lesser-used alternative like Bitcoin.
There is no excess energy though. They wouldn’t be making that energy if it wasn’t for Bitcoin.
The current systems used by VISA use significantly less energy compared to PoW cryptocurrencies such as Bitcoin
Ethereum was able to cut their energy usage down drastically by moving away of PoW. Windmills and clean energy aren’t the solution, getting rid of PoW is. Why build more solar farms if you could just not use so much electricity?
It should also be noted, that using more power isn’t fine just because it’s renewable. It’s still worse for the environment, and especially not until it’s 100%
I honestly never understood how Lemmy, a privacy and decentralisation focused community, is so vehemently anti-crypto. It’s worse than genAI. Every time it is mentioned, everyone goes “crypto is a scam”. I don’t think I’ve ever seen any good faith discussion around it, just “scam”, “pyramid scheme”, and “only criminals use it”.
Let’s get something out of the way immediately: shitcoins are a literal pyramid scheme and a scam. Anyone can make their own cryptocurrency in an evening, and anyone who throws money at them is either a fool or a gambler.
But I really don’t understand what people mean when they say Bitcoin, or Ethereum, or Monero are a scam. Sure they can be used to scam you, just like Amazon gift cards can. Maybe it’s about the price volatility, but the price of all 3 mentioned before is up on a day, week, month, 6 months, year, and 5 year scale. It’s volatile, but is not a scam. If you bought and sold at two random points in time, it’s more likely you made a profit than “got scammed”. You know what actually is a scam? Credit scores, overdraft fees, having to pay to check your balance, and so many other fucked up practices in the US banking system.
“Criminals use them” is just the worst fucking argument, especially in a space like this. Are PGP, VPNs and TOR for criminals too? Do you think getting rid of crypto would stop crime?
And yes, proof of work fucking sucks. The energy consumption of Bitcoin mining is a problem. I am not a cryptobro who spends all his time making trades and is here to tell you that crypto is the salvation. They are far from being “good” for everyday use. I just wanted to point out how it seems that critical thought gets shut down at the sight of those 6 letters, and I hope someone can explain to me what they find so terrible about crypto (aside from environmental concerns and shitcoins)
Last time I checked, BTC transaction fees were prohibitively high to pay for 80$ AAAA games with them, and WAY too high to pay for a 5 USD single-developer itch.io game.
I haven’t looked at other Crypto in a while. I made some money off BTC, but I think it is wildly overvalued for a long time, and I’ve been disappointed in to un-currency-like other alternatives were, even those that have been around long enough that they are unlikely to be rug-pulls.
That said, if you need to get paid and Visa/MC won’t let you use them, I’m not going to attack you (too hard) for accepting Crypto. They are bad systems, but we live in Captialism, so you gotta get paid. They might be the least-worse system that is global and isn’t Visa/MC. I’m unlikely to buy your product that way, tho; I’m more likely to pirate than I am to participate in cryptocurrency again.
Bitcoin bros are acting like little pushed around victims now?
I think this is bit what the post is trying to say.
A few days ago, visa and MasterCard forced steam to stop selling some games they didn’t like, and is not the first time. For many of us (I’m not a bitcoiner nor a crypto bro, my entire crypto wallet is 1usd) the first thought was “this is ridiculous. They have a duopoly so they get to decide the rules of the internet. This can be solved with crypto to remove all the unnecessary middlemen”. I felt the push. It reignited my interest in the tech and am once again seeing what’s out there, fees, and transaction times looking for a good balance
Needlessly antagonistic interpretation presented not for good faith discussion but for your own fragile emotional needs. Reap what you sow.
Trying so hard to sound smart, just like a bitcoin bro
I can dumb it down if you want.
Yeah, I’m going to buy my games with bitcoin now.
Oh shit, the fee is higher than the price of the game, can I use Litecoin ?
The current Bitcoin transaction fee is $0.67. Which means for a purchase larger than $34, Bitcoin is cheaper than the average credit card transaction fee.
I don’t have a credit card. If you pay per transaction, is there at least no monthly base fee?
There are are no other fees for holding crypto, you only pay when you move it from one place to another, those fees change depending on time of day/week as well. Though some services (like coincards) may take additional processing fees.
A credit card, in the US, has a transaction fee for the vendor, 1-3% of the purchase price, sometimes with a flat few cents fee on top.
The consumer has no transaction fee, but does pay interest (around 28% annually) if they don’t pay off the full balance every month (if they do pay it in full at the end of the month, there is no interest charge). Usually there will be a 1-2% cash back for the consumer as well.
Some credit cards also have an annual fee for the consumer. These generally have higher cash back rewards and higher vendor transaction fees than those that don’t.
Thanks.
Don’t forget secured cards, which require an upfront deposit, and cards with regular monthly or annual fees, simply for having them, regardless of whether you use them or not.
Thats the kind of credit cards you get offered if you are bad with credit cards (cough most Americans are cough thats kinda the whole business model cough), or, if someone steals your identity and you either don’t have enough time or money or otherwise can’t sufficiently prove to credit reporting agencies / banks that that is what happened.
Go to a credit union. Your local credit union will offer better rates and good limits with low fees compared to big banks. My first card at 18 was a secured card, $500 limit and a 4% interest if you didn’t pay off your card. After six months it went to am unsecured ans $1500 limit. All with no fees.
The merchant pays the fee. With cryptocurrencies, the consumer pays the fee. Some sites offer a discount for paying with cryptocurrency as a result. For example, most precious metals dealers who accept Bitcoin offer a 3% discount for using it.
You only have to wait one hour for the transaction to be confirmed. It also takes a shit load of energy and is extremely inefficient compared to credit card payment processors. Woohoo!
The current Bitcoin transaction fee is $0.67.
For a ~60 minute confirmation target. It’s $0.77 for a 20 minute confirmation target right now. The daily average is $1.03.
And lets not forget that the only reason the price is so low now is because people aren’t competing much for those transactions. If people actually used bitcoin to buy games the transaction fee would increase significantly.
I only buy games at $30 or cheaper. So that won’t work for me 🤷♂️
Lightning network exists too
Cumrocket is the way!
Thanks for the tip, I’m putting all my life savings into it then.
This exists too ::: spoiler spoiler https://coinstats.app/coins/8fZL148nnC168RAVCZh4PkjvMZmxMEfMLDhoziWVPnqf_solana/ :::
Bitcoin is pretty old, newer cryptocurrencies are more efficient.
I’m glad we’re spending the equivalent of a couple dozen million households of electricity on it
You’re so right, environmental impact has not been assessed by any cryptocurrency ever made. Literally zilch. None. Nada.
? And that makes bitcoins waste disapear?
No, and I never stated that. I just think it’s stupid to group all of crypto as an environmentally unsustainable technology. Following your logic, switching to electric cars isn’t worth it because the 100 years of petroleum pollution won’t disappear.
Meanwhile the US military’s energy budget eclipses global crypto mining essentially to maintain petrodollar dominance and American residents pay for it.
Let’s not ask how much power Visa and MasterCard use for their global monopoly.
Literally orders of magnitude less? Are you not familiar with how proof of work crypto operates? Being energy inefficient is the whole point.
Yeah I’m using this cool new Lightning cryptocurrency, check it out.
the fee might be higher at some points but you’re just blabbering. check mempool.space and actually look at what fees are at rn + consider that there are many chains and l2s that can be used for payment. B)
A dollar in fees is a dollar more than with fiat for the person paying. That and do you expect enough normal people to learn about L2s and chains to make it worthwhile for Valve or whoever to implement support for anything besides the main chains of 2-3 major cryptos and stablecoins on ethereum main?
A dollar in fees is a dollar more than with fiat for the person paying.
Average credit card transaction fee is ~2%. So a dollar of Bitcoin fees makes Bitcoin cheaper for any purchase over $50.
People who use credit cards don’t pay the transaction fee. If the product is priced at 10 Stanly nickle they only play 10 Stanley nickle. Lot of credit cards also offer cash back so people might get 1-5% back depending on what the category for the month is.
When it comes to transaction fees you are going to have to sell the vender on it than the consumer since they are the one paying.
Oh you’re definitely paying the credit card fee too, but since it’s the vendor who gets billed it’s just priced into the product. That’s why the product costs 10 Stanly nickle instead of 9 Stanly nickle.
Pay same in cash or credit. Priced in or not what the company asks for is what the consumer pays, so point being these crypto transaction arguments make no difference when it comes to fees. Like you said end retail price is already priced in.
Company wants 10 Stanley nickles consumer is charged 10 Stanley nickles regardless of payment method.
Yeah good point, they’re not discounting the credit increase for the crypto buyers. That might even be against their credit processor contract.
The transaction fee is not paid by the consumer (directly), and lord knows sellers are not going to lower prices based on payment method.
Sadly, this is probably true. Unless they’re trying to steer customers away from more troublesome payment providers.
sellers are not going to lower prices based on payment method
Mullvad actually does this for their VPN service, which I think is great. For a VPN company that doesn’t want to store identifiers about you, taking crypto makes sense because that also doesn’t necessarily have identifiers about you attached that they could read or be required to store, unlike a card that requires your name, address, and card number.
Other than that though, no larger companies are going to do anything of the sort, let alone be likely to even implement it as a payment method to begin with. Tons of additional technical complexity for little to no benefit.
I hope the EU to come up with their own payment process to compete against and be a mainstream alternative to the US based ones.
It depends, I have shopped at places where they will discount up to 15% by paying cash.
But it’s not variable so the seller prices it in. Switch to Bitcoin and you have to pay it while prices likely stay the same. Also lately most of my games have been under 30 EUR tbh
I mean either you care enough about payment processor censorship to go around them or you don’t. If the extra dollar isn’t worth it to you then that is what it is.
Nobody is going to rush to implement a payment system where the fees can change 5x hour to hour because that’s just customer dissatisfaction waiting to happen.
Litecoin is cool.
